*** LOG OPENED: Wed Apr  1 18:12:09 1998
---
Participants:
  HandiBot
  joel-
  Amazin1
  HelloKit (carlym@u.washington.edu)
  MrLinux
  jrt (twyford@sv.net.au)
  Kali
  ChanServ
  lisiado
  Mooooooo (dse@pacific.net)
---
<HelloKit> logging is on 
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<HelloKit> Well, it's a small crowd... I was afraid of 
    that since I wasn't able to send a reminder. 
<Mooooooo> the list will be up soon 
<Mooooooo> the hard drive crashed 
<HelloKit> ah... were they able to salvage it or do I get 
    to start over again? 
<Mooooooo> no idea 
<HelloKit> k 
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<HelloKit> Should I wait a few minutes or go ahead and 
    start? 
<Mooooooo> lots of people wrote and asked why we kicked 
    them off the list 
<jrt> Hi Jo:) 
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<Mooooooo> wait a few 
<Mooooooo> ho jo 
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<HelloKit> k 
<Mooooooo> wb jo 
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<Jo> Hello Mooooooo darling! 
<Jo> Hi Carly, jrt, Amazin1, Kali and MrLinux 
<HelloKit> Heya Jo :o) 
<Mooooooo> whats new? 
<Amazin1> Jo :) 
<Mooooooo> how many are on the list now? 
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<HelloKit> Just over 100 
<Mooooooo> hi john 
<HelloKit> Hey John 
<Mooooooo> wow 
<CincyKid> Evening to you DAn, Kit 
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<HelloKit> Hi Jan 
<erdy> Hi Carly 
<CincyKid> Wow, what a topic, good one 
<jrt> Hi cincykid:) 
<jrt> ]Hi erdy:) 
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<erdy> hi jrt 
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<Jettin> hi everyone 
<HelloKit> Hey Jettin 
<erdy> hi 
* HelloKit feels like a Wal-Mart people greeter :o) 
<Jettin> hi kit, erdy 
<erdy> where's the shopping cart 
<HelloKit> hehe 
<erdy> hi jettin 
<jrt> Hi jettin:) 
<Jettin> hi jrt. Hows everyone doin tonight 
<Mooooooo> im great :o) 
<jrt> great:) 
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<Jettin> hi Moooooooooo 
<Mooooooo> are you 70 years old carly? 
<Jo> Fun on the computer tonight. Keep getting disconnected. 
<HelloKit> I'm having what I hope is the worst week of 
    the year, but other than that I'm great :o) 
<Jo> Awwwwww : - ) 
<Jettin> Wel, I hope it gets better for you kit 
<Mooooooo> ok we can start 
<HelloKit> okie dokie 
<HelloKit> Well guys, I wrote a corny little speech to 
    start of tonight's meeting... bear with me. :o) 
<HelloKit> off 
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<CincyKid> This oughta be good. :-) 
<Mooooooo> hi rosie 
<rosie_> hi moo 
<HelloKit> When we first started #Disabled, we tried to 
    keep the amount of written rules to a minimum. We wanted 
    it to be a casual environment where people would feel 
    comfortable, and we thought we could trust people to act 
    in a responsible and mature manner. 
<jrt> wb rosie:) 
<HelloKit> Lately though, it hasn't been working. The 
    unwritten rules of respect and common courtesy have failed. 
    People who have been banned for outrageous and rude 
    behavior argue that they have a right to do whatever they 
    please and should not be banned for any reason. 
<HelloKit> So I have decided to establish a clear set of 
    rules which will hopefully help to protect us from these 
    attacks, or at least to give us a clear justification for 
    removing the 'undesirables' from the channel. And I want to 
    have everyone's input, opinions and ideas for establishing 
    these rules. 
<Kali> ib 
<HelloKit> Now I want you all to know that none of you 
    are part of the problems we're having, but I hope you can 
    help us and be part of the solution. 
<jrt> ping me 
<rosie_> 15 secs here jrt 
<HelloKit> So now it's your turn to talk... ;o) 
<HelloKit> 16 secs Debbie 
<Mooooooo> well.... 
<Mooooooo> actual rules are kind of hard to lay out... 
<MrLinux> yes they r 
<Mooooooo> for the reason that what the idea of misconduct 
    is varies 
<Mooooooo> example... 
<jrt> but some guide lines would be okay:) 
<Mooooooo> someone uses a 'cuss word' in a conversation... 
<Mooooooo> thats not necessarly bad 
<Mooooooo> but someone who enters doing the same could be 
    considered bad 
<Mooooooo> abuse is one of those 'i know it when i see 
    it' things 
<jrt> yeah thats true, depends on what context they are in 
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<Mooooooo> yeah, context is very important 
<CincyKid> That would also depend on whether minors were 
    present 
<jrt> true 
<Mooooooo> yep, many things have to be considered 
<CincyKid> Conduct should be the consensus of the room 
    maybe, if you know what i mean 
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<Mooooooo> sometimes i jump the gun too 
<jrt> yes and respect as well, like some people have 
    different beliefs etc than others 
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<Mooooooo> i banned someone yesterday because his nick was 
    'offensive' and his first words were not 100% polite 
<Jo> yes certain deeply religious people have to bend a 
    little bit. We aren't here to prosletize. 
<CincyKid> I think we all agree that someone who is being 
    derogatory or verbally abusive of someone , should be 
    kicked or banned 
<jrt> but iys hard when that happens, do you let them 
    stay and upset somebody or do you kick them before that 
    might happen?? 
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<erdy> it's rudeness...and when they're insulting to others 
<Jo> You have to wait until they do wrong. They can't be 
    kicked immediately unless they have proven to be vulgar and 
    argumentative all the time. 
<jrt> yeah, youcant judge a book by its cover in this 
    instance 
<Mooooooo> this person fit all the classic signatures of a 
    trouble maker 
<HelloKit> I think the most important thing is going to be 
    that we make it clear that the ops (and anyone with ban 
    power) have a right to decide what is and isn't acceptable 
    and to act accordingly. 
<Jo> Yes ops is the supreme commander of disabled. 
<jrt> yes and also let it be know that just because we 
    are called disabled, we are not here for all the wierdos 
    to pipck on 
<jrt> known 
<CincyKid> That's what ops are for, isn't it? 
<jrt> pick 
<Jo> And for the teenagers to take over our channel and 
    turn it into 'love me' time 
<jrt> yeah but its hard, because the irc is open to every 
    wierd and wondrful person out there, its a job trying to 
    weed the good from the bad 
<Jo> If I have to sit through two hours of ahhhh, eee, 
    oooh, uuuuh, yummmmm again I will puke. 
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<jrt> so will I Jo,lol 
<Mooooooo> lol 
<Mooooooo> hi jeff 
<Pyro> hi 
<Jo> hi pyro 
<jrt> Hi pryo:) 
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<Mooooooo> ok Jo, me and carly will try to keep our 
    affair to a bare minimum 
<Mooooooo> hi rose 
<jrt> how do the other family oriented channels police and 
    cope with this?? 
<CincyKid> lol 
<Jo> That is abuse of the channel and very upsetting to 
    disabled who have attendants tune us in so they can watch. 
<rose> hi all 
<HelloKit> Jo: Like, 'Users who deliberately interrupt 
    organized discussions (i.e. Wednesday meetings) will be 
    temporarily banned until the discussion is over.' 
<jrt> Hi rose:) 
<Jo> Oh darling you are cheating on me. boop hoo 
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<Mooooooo> i wont kick, but maybe go to moderated 
<Jo> Yes kit. The night I ran meeting it took me over 10 
    minutes to get them to stop horsing around. Once meeting 
    is called to order they should knock it off. 
<Lily> it's hard to be ops, and you just have to make a 
    quick judgement sometimes 
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<Mooooooo> we did that a couple meetings ago and it worked 
    well 
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<HelloKit> Okay, that's another idea I had. During meetings 
    we can go to moderated, and give everyone a voice... and 
    just de-voice as needed. 
<jrt> like I try and be very understanding, but sometimes 
    its hard 
<Jo> Not sure how you do that but sounds ok. 
<turbokev> sounds hard kit 
<Jo> We are in middle of serious discussion and someone 
    starts chatting with another, let them take it elsewhere. 
<jrt> yeah I remember we did that once, and it seemed to 
    work 
<HelloKit> Not really, Kevin. 
<HelloKit> right 
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<erdy> sounds like a surgical procedure 
<Jo> Kit one night they were so rude to you, even doing 
    roses and stuff. That is not right. 
<turbokev> What is todays topic? 
<Mooooooo> t916yv 
<jrt> you dont feel a thing erdy:) 
<Mooooooo> s03s 
<Mooooooo> oops 
<erdy> whew 
<Jo> : - ) 
<HelloKit> look up 
<jrt> Daniel, what language are you talking in!! 
<Mooooooo> random keys 
<Lily> lol 
<jrt> touch typing for the blind,lol 
<Jo> I have tried to take back the channel a few times 
    now. Some people think I am a mean old lady cause they 
    didn't understand what I was doing. 
<HelloKit> er, never mind... my topic is gone lol 
<Lily> i thought this was it 
<Jo> A 13 year old non disabled person on here demanding 
    attention and trying to pick up guys all the time is not 
    right. 
<jrt> I know how you feel Jo, I do it sometimes too 
<jrt> no way 
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<Mooooooo> well, in the last few days a lot of the people 
    causing the trouble have either disappeared or were flushed 
<jrt> Hi ket:) 
<kettt> ;) hi 
<Mooooooo> after my post to the list 
<Jo> Many who come on here and want to ask questions 
    about meds or cathing etc. don't want to say anything 
    because they are on here. 
<jrt> yeah its been really nice the last few days:) 
<Lily> i haven't noticed it very often, not lately 
<Jo> Big difference and a lot of the old regulars are 
    coming back since you cleaned house. 
<Mooooooo> the one thing that does need to be pointed out 
    though... 
<jrt> yes Daniel I've even noticed that:) 
<Jo> I almost quit the channel because I was so upset 
    over it, then decided heck no this is OUR channel and we 
    should take it back over. 
<Jo> what Mooooooooo? 
<turbokev> Thats right Jo 
<Mooooooo> the common bond of this group is that most of 
    us have a disability, but that was never intended to be 
    the forced theme of the channel. We are all different and 
    have many interests 
<jrt> I agree too Jo 
<Mooooooo> the topics will vary 
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<turbokev> The house needed cleaned up 
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<Mooooooo> as well as the age and maturity levels 
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<turbokev> what happened? 
<HelloKit> Argh! It's a good thing the bots are logging, 
    cuz I can't stay connected long enough to get anything... 
<Jo> yes and that makes it very hard to do programs. But 
    you have variety so everyone has a day in here and must 
    learn to share. 
<Mooooooo> the problems of the last few weeks were caused 
    because everyone put too much focus on disabilities 
<jrt> yes, but when all these sickos and whoever see that 
    this channel is called disabled, the friendliest channel.. 
<Mooooooo> all the complaining was specificly related to 
    disabilities 
<jrt> they know the people in here will be offended by 
    them 
<Mooooooo> was too much complaining and not enough living 
<jrt> thats true daniel 
<Jo> We have to get out in our communities and educate 
    people that disabled does not mean 'OK lets pick on the 
    retard time.' 
<jrt> exactely Jo 
<Mooooooo> the reason I come here has nothing to do with 
    disabilities 
<Mooooooo> i just like the people 
<Jo> ADA and other programs can only work if we are out 
    and about and educate people that we have feelings to. 
<jrt> same here:) 
<Mooooooo> and when we focus too much on one thing, it 
    gets real boring 
<Lily> very introspective, your right 
<turbokev> I haven't visited the scheduled chat lately 
    because of my classes so I don't know the whole story but 
    it sounds bad 
<jrt> and then all the hassels start 
<jrt> like every sicko out there now knows that this is 
    where all the 'disabled' hang out 
<Jo> ok but we are still her to answer questions and help 
    each other. 
<Mooooooo> actually debbie, i found out something very 
    strange 
<jrt> yeah for sure Jo 
<jrt> whats that Daniel?? 
<Mooooooo> ive have talked to a lot of the people who 
    have come in here to harrass 
<Mooooooo> and most didnt really think the channel was real 
<Mooooooo> about disabilities 
<Mooooooo> they thought it was just a name 
<turbokev> We have to learn how to come to terms with our 
    disabilities and learn how to live 
<jrt> I understand what you mean daniel 
<Jo> and if we ever hope to be accepted we have to 
    educate people on what disabled is. 
<Mooooooo> thats not my calling 
<Jo> and have fun. 
<Mooooooo> im just me and if they have a problem, they 
    can deal with it 
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<Jettin> I agree Moooooooooooo 
<turbokev> life to its fullest and ignore the ignorance of 
    the few uneducated 
<jrt> I'm a bit like that too Daniel, they can take me 
    for who I am or butt out 
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<Jo> I am a !@#!@ Yankee transplant, they gotta take me I 
    won't go back to snow and ice. 
<turbokev> your right daniel and jrt 
<Lily> that's what makes it interesting, everyone is 
    different 
<turbokev> say what Jo? 
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<Jo> and insecure people are afraid of different. 
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<Mooooooo> i explain myself to people who ask, but i dont 
    want to waste my life educating the masses 
<jrt> lol,Jo 
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<jrt> exactely Daniel 
<Jo> turbo I happen to be a brass bottom, loud mouth old 
    Yankee transplant who just happens to be disabled to. 
    Around here both are disabilities. 
<Lily> lol 
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<HelloKit> The biggest problem in this channel lately isn't 
    those random harrassers though - we're used to that and 
    can handle them easily. The big problem is some of the 
    newer members who think they own the universe or that we 
    somehow owe them something. 
<turbokev> we might be disabled for a reason that god had 
    in mind 
<Jo> In what way Kit? 
<turbokev> ie to educate 
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<Jo> GO NAVY 
<usn21> hi gang 
<HelloKit> Without naming names, someone was here the other 
    night who insisted on engaging in a particular behavior 
    which annoyed several other users. 
<jrt> the problem is turbe is you can only educate those 
    who want it 
<Mooooooo> This may sound calous, but the world doesn't owe 
    us anything. At best, we owe them something because we are 
    the ones forcing them to make changes for our benefit 
<turbokev> If I seem that way kit I don't intend to 
<jrt> turbo 
<HelloKit> When asked to stop, this person refused and 
    became more and more angry and persistent, until he was 
    eventually banned and then turned around and accused us of 
    violating his right to free speech. 
<Jo> We have one I feel sorry for but you can't force 
    people to talk to you if they don't want to. 
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<HelloKit> He actually told us we were breaking the law by 
    banning him from the channel. 
<Jo> read that multiple personality letter. 
<HelloKit> So anyway, that incident is actually what 
    inspired this meeting. 
<Jo> You don't have to tolerate someone coming in here and 
    making believe they are other people to get attention. 
<jrt> no the world owes us nothing, but,the changes they 
    make are sometimes not just for the benifits of disabled 
    people 
<turbokev> you can educate people by just being out in 
    public 
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<Jo> Carly it all boils down to your house, your rules. 
    You don't have to post them you can refuse entry to 
    anyone you want or throw out anyone you don't want. 
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<HelloKit> I want to make sure that it is clear that we 
    have rules and the right to ban anyone with or without a 
    reason. 
<jrt> thats true Jo, all these other channels do it, why 
    not us as well 
<CincyKid> without reason? 
<jrt> but when you jion a server isnt that whats scrolled 
    doen in front of people 
<Jo> I understand now. Didn't know Moooooo could see things 
    I didn't so was confused other day. Now I won't ever 
    question him again. 
<jrt> join 
<HelloKit> Not that we would ban without reason, but the 
    point is that we do have that right. 
<jrt> like no harrassing, flooding, swearing, ect 
<Lily> what's flooding? 
<CincyKid> I know, I agree, but it just didn't sound 
    right. 
<Jo> aggrevating, instigating and trying to get people to 
    come meet you for sex on here. 
<HelloKit> Yes but most don't read that, and like this guy 
    the other night, he says those rules are illegal to even 
    have (which we all know is BS). 
<Mooooooo> i wont enforce a no swearing rule 
<jrt> I think it is like saying the same thing line after 
    line 
<turbokev> Kit, in my opinion, free speech doesn't include 
    harrassment so that bozo is most likely out of line for 
    insenuateing that harrassing is part of the 1st amendment 
<Mooooooo> the prime rule is 'don't be a jerk' 
<CincyKid> How about offensive nicks? 
<Jo> Bingo Moooooooo 
<jrt> right on Mooooooo 
<HelloKit> If asked to change it and they refuse, then I 
    would ban, yes. 
<Mooooooo> when someone uses an offensive nick, they are 
    usually trying to be offensive 
<Mooooooo> the bots will auto-kick anyone with truly 
    offensive nicks 
<CincyKid> sounds good to me, I'll vote for that 
<jrt> well I must admit, when I see an offensive nic, my 
    warning signs are up straight away 
<turbokev> so many people either misinterpret or stretch the 
    US Constitution 
<HelloKit> Personally, I wait until they actually do 
    something. 
<jrt> I wait but I always just become wary of the nic 
<HelloKit> It doesn't matter what the constitution says... 
    this is our channel, private property, and we have every 
    right to impose extra rules. 
<jrt> thats okay turbo, I dont know the constitution for 
    America 
<Jo> 0k 
<Lily> neither do I 
<Jo> I am for that. Sorry my 0 is broken : - ) 
<Mooooooo> oh yeah, rule #2. No using 0 for o ;oP 
<Jo> I knew that would get you 
<HelloKit> I'm sorry if I sound like a b*tch guys, but 
    this guy had me pretty ticked off. 
<Jettin> It come down to one thing, treat people with the 
    respect you yourself want to be treated with. If they 
    can't do that, then they deserve to be (kicked or banned). 
<jrt> you dont sound like a B*tch 
<Jo> Was there, saw it and wanted to strangle him myself. 
<Lily> missed it as usual 
<Jo> Honestly I think I would have banned very early on. 
<HelloKit> Especially since he threw such a fit when all 
    he had to do was turn of his friggin' caps lock. 
<Jo> He did it deliberately to aggevate. Got his kicks 
    getting attention and arguing 
<HelloKit> Aaaargh! Why do I keep typing 'of' instead of 
    'off'? 
<Mooooooo> its okay carly, even if you were a b*tch (and 
    you're not), you're OUR b*tch :o) 
<HelloKit> lol 
<turbokev> I didn't say that the constition was not in 
    this channels corner but I said that that guy was out of 
    bounds 
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<Jo> Dear Abby said no one can use you unless you let 
    them. So bounce them sooner and don't get so upset. No 
    one on here comes here to put up with idiots like that. 
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<Jettin> exactly Jo 
<turbokev> sometimes we need a b**ch to keep things 
    straight 
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<Mooooooo> i think i'll make a new bot called Exorcist to 
    purge the bad people 
<jrt_1> sorry bout that:) 
<Lily> lol 
<HelloKit> lol 
<turbokev> but carly is too sweet to be one 
<Lily> what are you doing jrt? 
<jrt_1> getting disconnected:( 
<Jo> Most on here try so hard to be nice, bend over 
    backward to please. But we all have to stand up to 
    idiots. 
<Lily> :( 
<Jo> I had that when I first came on. 
<turbokev> so moooo is resulting to cyber terorism? 
<CincyKid> Wish I could stay longer, but it's time to go 
    here... 
<turbokev> lol 
<Jo> by cincy 
<jrt_1> yeah I get it sometimes late at night when I come 
    on 
<CincyKid> goodnight to all of ya 
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<Lily> well, when you first join, it's hard to know 
<jrt_1> night cincy 
<Jo> We can't dump it all on the ops to protect us we 
    got to stand up and support them 
<jrt_1> yeah well I try as much as I can:) 
<Lily> my first time on, i was astonished by what some 
    jerk said 
<Mooooooo> what did he say? 
<Lily> but wasn't sure how, or if it was my place, to 
    respond 
<turbokev> when you're new you don't know people so you 
    try hard to meet them 
<jrt_1> like I try and warn people if they start that 
    what we do and dont tollerate, sometimes it works 
<Jo> A lot of people use the anonymity to act out things 
    they would never do or say in person. 
<turbokev> in the group 
<Lily> you kicked him, moo, for a rude question about 
    anmputees 
<Mooooooo> oh that guy 
<HelloKit> brb 
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<Jo> You meet them on the street and they are Mr. 
    religious and and soooo good then in here they play super 
    sex fiend. 
<jrt_1> I always try and approach new nics with 
    friendliness, if they start well then I turn 
<Lily> yes, and i wasn't sure what to do 
<Mooooooo> lily, i banned his entire service provider from 
    irc for 3 days 
<Jo> Once in a while I think I am on Fantasy Island and 
    keep looking for Ricardo Montabalm and de plane to get 
    shouted. 
<jrt_1> its ahrd Lily I know, I havent been on here that 
    long about 7 months I think 
<Lily> good for you 
<Lily> takes a bit of getting used to 
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<turbokev> jo even if they don't do it in real life and 
    they do it online then they still would do it 
<Mooooooo> mimi :o) 
<Mimi> hi guys :o) 
<jrt_1> Hi Mimi:) 
<kettt> Mimi..;) 
<Lily> brb 
<Jettin> hi mimi 
<Mimi> how is everyone? 
<Jo> jrt ferret just cmae in and says I got to tell you 
    he is watching a program about Queensland and the Northern 
    territories. : - ) 
<Mooooooo> If anyone has a problem with being harrassed by 
    any user, let me know 
<Mooooooo> im great :o) 
<Mimi> good :o) 
<Jettin> fin, and yourself Mimi? 
<turbokev> cyber and real life are the same if you are 
    chatting 
<turbokev> hi mimi 
<Mimi> I'm tired but good, thanks :o) 
<kettt> hi Mimi...are you there in vegas? 
<jrt_1> tell him to look out for brisbane or the gold 
    coast Jo:) 
<Jo> I keep a rolex with nicks and info on age and 
    disability, children, siblings, etc. It helps so I 
    understand the youngest ones are just being their age not 
    acting up. 
<Mimi> yup, I'm here :o) 
<Jo> He is on York river with the crocs. 
<jrt_1> right:) 
<turbokev> r u from england jo 
<Jo> nope Texas 
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<Jo> born Massachusetts, Yankee transplant. 
<jrt_1> in the middle of no where,lol 
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<Jo> Yup jrt West Texas, miles from anything. 
<turbokev> what did quensland come from 
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<Mimi> that's a great idea Jo...I'm not that energetic or 
    organized though 
<turbokev> near san antonio 
<Jo> Mooooooo anyone who comes in has to understand they 
    are a guest in here and must observe rules and manners or 
    leave. 
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<HelloKit> Does anyone have anything else to add to a list 
    of possible rules? 
<Jo> further west by 200 miles. 
<Mooooooo> i think we have it covered 
<Mimi> I'm sorry I missed the meeeting everyone...I'm in a 
    different time zone and got screwed up :o( 
<Jo> Put you are a guest here, this is my home and I 
    can eject you anytime I want. 
<Lily> back now 
<turbokev> stay on topic (good rule) 
<jrt_1> I agree with jo, rules and manners or leave, treat 
    others as you want to be treated 
<Jo> excuses, excuses, We all know you were at that 
    roulette wheel again. 
<turbokev> jo good one 
<turbokev> i have to go 
<Lily> stay on topic is a good rule 
<Jo> Lots of them don't understand technical lingo but they 
    will understand that. 
<turbokev> bye everyone 
<jrt_1> lol,Jo 
<Jo> bye 
<Mooooooo> bye kev 
<turbokev> adios 
<jrt_1> bye turbo:) 
<Jettin> bye all, see you people later 
<Mooooooo> see ya jettin 
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<Lily> i find it disconserting when i have to wade thro 
    all the red herrings 
<jrt_1> bye jettin:) 
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<Jo> Ferret like some in here demands attention and won't 
    go away. Gotta go. This is his night off. bye 
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<jrt_1> bye jo:) 
<Mooooooo> bye Jo 
<Mimi> we only have a 'topic' on Wednesday nights 
<Jo> Only one in 10 days and for 12 more. ': - ) 
<Jo> bye 
<Jo> sorry 
*** Jo has left #disabled
<Mooooooo> i think we did good 
<Lily> i think a more formal format is ok for wed. 
    nights, i expected it 
<jrt_1> yeah I think we got the point across:) 
*** LOG CLOSED: Wed Apr  1 19:31:20 1998