*** LOG OPENED: Wed Mar 18 18:03:13 1998
---
Participants:
  HandiBot
  Disabled
  Aislinn
  nate
  CybrRomeo
  Mooooooo (dse@pacific.net)
  tractor
  karenw-
  ChanServ
  erdy
  Countrybo (jpatterson@centuryinter.net)
  Raven_
  jrt (twyford@sv.net.au)
  Mimi (mimi@lino.com)
  HelloKit (carlym@u.washington.edu)
  elisabeth
  Mooooooo via Telnet (dse@pacific.net)
---
<HelloKit> logging is on 
<Mooooooo> yep 
<elisabeth> hello tractor, how are you 
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<jrt> Hi Judi:) 
<judi> hi everyone 
<elisabeth> hello judi 
<EASY> HELLOOO EVERYONE 
<Mimi> hi Easy 
<elisabeth> hi easy 
<jrt> Hi easy:) 
<judi> Hello Easy 
<Countrybo> hi easy 
<Mooooooo> hi easy 
<EASY> WHATS GOING ON INN HERE TONIGHT? 
<elisabeth> does anyone know the subject for tonight 
<Mooooooo> look up elizabeth :o) 
<jrt> I do :) 
<judi> Charity vs independence 
<EASY> HOW ABOUT WHATS REAL LOVE 
<elisabeth> look up, otay 
<HelloKit> Are we ready? 
<Mooooooo> i am 
<judi> shoot 
<Mimi> I is 
<erdy> ok 
<jrt> i am:) 
<Countrybo> i is 
<nate> im ready 
<HelloKit> How many of you are involved with organizations 
    that work to raise funds for disability research? 
<Countrybo> me 
<jrt> not directly?? 
<judi> I am, I think, the arthritis foundation-does that 
    count? 
<Mooooooo> not directly 
<HelloKit> Sure does Judi 
<Mimi> I'm not involved in anything 
<erdy> I belong to arthritis foundation? 
<Countrybo> mda all the way lol 
<jrt> like the Canine Control Council runs dog shows for 
    different funraising societies... 
<HelloKit> What are some of the ways you've seen these 
    organizations raise money? 
<jrt> I go when I can to these shows, so I dont know if 
    that counts?? 
<EASY> cybrromeo why u not saying anything? 
<Countrybo> tv, door to door, lockup, shamrock sales, 
    carnivals.... 
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<judi> Different type of celebrity fundraisers, walkathons, 
    telephone campaigns, etc 
<phoenyxx> hello all! 
<jrt> door knocks, telethons, stuff like that.. 
<Mimi> hi Simon :o) 
<judi> hi phoenyxx 
<jrt> and dog shows!!! 
<phoenyxx> Mimi :-) 
<phoenyxx> hey judi 
<EASY> hello phoenyxx 
<elisabeth> kit, are you talking local, or more national 
<HelloKit> doesn't matter 
<judi> also, the thing about leaving part of your estate 
    to the organization 
<Mooooooo> ya also have to ask about how much goes to the 
    intended purpose 
<jrt> yes you do Daniel 
<Mooooooo> I know that the American Cancer Society puts 
    about 10%-20% at most 
<Mooooooo> the rest is advertising and overhead 
<elisabeth> i like to do things on a more personal level 
<Mimi> the club for the disabled where I volunteered before 
    Alex was born made their own home-made lottery tickets and 
    sold them, and got a local company to donate a television 
<jrt> me too if I can:) 
<judi> I was totally convinced of its authenticity until I 
    read a news post from someone who had worked in the 
    organization 
<erdy> how disgusting 
<judi> now, I'm confused a little 
<judi> I still believe in it though 
<EASY> so am i 
<judi> they also sell tapes, books, etc 
<Mooooooo> i only give to charities that use 100% for the 
    intended purpose 
<judi> But, they also give away a lot of good info 
<EASY> good bye all 
<jrt> bye easy:) 
<judi> How do you find out Daniel? 
<judi> bye easy 
<Mooooooo> if the charity claims that the contribution is 
    tax deductable then you can write to them and they MUST 
    send you their financial reports 
<judi> ok 
<judi> it is tax deductible 
<HelloKit> Do any of the organizations you are involved 
    with use a pity approach to solicit donations? 
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<judi> No 
<elisabeth> no, not at all 
<jrt> yes and I hate that... 
<Countrybo> yup and it sucks 
<Mooooooo> no, they use just the facts 
<elisabeth> what do you all think of the jerry lewis show 
    each year 
<jrt> I dont see it lisa:) 
<judi> I just wish they would ask others or money 
    too-which I'm sure they do, but everytime I turn around 
    they are asking me again 
<Countrybo> pity approach 100% but hey look atall the$$ 
    they get thankgod 
<phoenyxx> perhaps on a similar level, I heard about a 
    local CP support group that was founded by the parent's of 
    a woman with CP, sounded good until I found out that the 
    group's whole existence revolves around their daughter. 
<elisabeth> i kind of think of that as a pity show 
<erdy> I watch the end 
<phoenyxx> I seem to have seen alot of flak aimed at the 
    Lewis telethon in recent years. 
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<judi> That isn't much different than ,for instance a local 
    child gets hurt, no insurance, a fund is set up, etc 
<elisabeth> judi, you are probably right, but that show 
    bugs me 
<jrt> what I hate is when these people sit outside a bank 
    or supermarket and asking for a donation as you walk in 
    the door 
<phoenyxx> Perhaps, but the woman I know is very arrogant 
    about it. She's mad that her parents let other disabled 
    people in it after she got older. 
* Countrybo is thankfull for mda 
* phoenyxx is NOT knocking groups! 
<Mooooooo> I agree CB 
<Mimi> I haven't watched it in years, but I have MD 
    people in my family so I usually give anyways...CB reminded 
    me last year ;o) 
<phoenyxx> For some reason, and I know that's not the 
    intent, when I see some group of disabled people in the 
    press I just end up feeling very guilty about my situation 
    not being as bad as theirs. 
<Countrybo> lol 
<elisabeth> i am sorry if i have offended you all, really 
<HelloKit> What are some examples of the 'pity campaign'? 
<judi> I have gotten a lot of good sound info from the 
    arthritis foundation and I know if there is ever any hope 
    for a cure that it will come through the research being 
    done there 
<Countrybo> you havent liz 
<Mooooooo> you havent, elisabeth 
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<cutecOol> WAW FULL HOUSE! 
<jrt> getting people in wheel chair at shopping centres 
    asking for donations outside a bank 
<Countrybo> hey i get letters from mda all the time they 
    really are gettin closer to some cures 
<Mooooooo> carly, i saw it with the clinton health care 
    plan 
<phoenyxx> pity campaign: is it out of line to be critical 
    of a the coverage of a disabled celebrity, in the sense 
    that their particular condition is shown to be important 
    only because a famous person has it. 
<judi> same with arthritis 
<Mimi> lol 
<Raven_> llllll 
<Mooooooo> every time hillary spoke she made sure to be 
    holding some 'po lil crippled black kid' 
<phoenyxx> Mooooo: I think Clinton's Health Care plan is 
    patterned after the German T-4 project. 
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<Mooooooo> lotaca :o) 
<jrt> the problem isnt that big out here.. 
<Mimi> lotaca! :o) 
<jrt> latcac:) 
<elisabeth> my contributions are more along the line of 
    helping a young child that has never had a real w/ch, 
    fitted free for their first one, that is all i can do at 
    this time 
<lotaca> :-) HEY hey 
<jrt> lotaca:) 
<lotaca> ello 
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<erdy> that's alot elisabeth 
<phoenyxx> elisabeth: that's still something. 
<Countrybo> thatsawhole lot liz 
<judi> amen 
<elisabeth> i don't have money to give, but i do have 
    time 
<lotaca> No kidding, free, that's a mountain of help 
<Mooooooo> Denise :o) 
<Amazin1> :) 
<Countrybo> sometimestime isfar morevaluabletha money 
<HelloKit> Does the pity approach get results? 
<lotaca> ? 
<Countrybo> some times time is far more valuable than money 
<judi> Yes, it does 
<Countrybo> lol 
<nate> some times 
<Countrybo> yes 
<jrt> depends... 
<phoenyxx> I was told by a local independent living 
    counselor that their group's biggest problem is the way 
    public support is 'fragmented' among various specific 
    disabilities rather than a general focus on disability in 
    general. Is that a fair observation? 
<Raven_> actually Phoenyxx, I was bitter towards C. R., but 
    now i realize the importance that a celebrity brings in 
    social-recognition 
<Mimi> I think it does 
<lotaca> It their observation :-) 
<elisabeth> phoenyxx, yes 
<Amazin1> yes, phoenyxx 
<Mooooooo> it also depends on the popularity of the disease 
<phoenyxx> Raven: true, but I'd like to see more everyday 
    people. The disabled celbrity is sometimes bandied about to 
    make the rest of us feel bad about complaining. 
<Amazin1> I volunteer for two independent living centers in 
    my state 
<Raven_> or severity there of 
<Countrybo> popular diseases? 
<phoenyxx> Moooooo: exactly! 
<elisabeth> moo, you are so right 
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<Mooooooo> breast cancer gets more money than prostate 
    cancer even though EVERY male who lives long enough WILL 
    get prostate cancer 
<Mimi> true 
<Countrybo> true 
<jrt> yes you are so right Daniel:) 
<Mooooooo> AIDS is the most preventable disease there is 
    yet it gets more than both 
<elisabeth> moo, i did not know that 
<Countrybo> md gets lots 
<lotaca> painfully true :-) 
<Amazin1> do you know if you are blind you get more SS 
    benefits ? 
<Raven_> that's the sad-truth of reality...unless something 
    severe hits close to home, it's little more than a myth 
    IMO 
<Countrybo> moretaxbreakstoo 
<Countrybo> more tax breaks too 
<jrt> or down here anyway, children in wheelchairs get more 
    recognition than adults do 
<jrt> in wheelchairs 
<jrt> because kids always get more sympathy 
<lotaca> people feel for kids, expefct compliance from 
    adults 
<lotaca> expect 
* Countrybo feels more sorry bout disabled kids than adults 
    must be paternal 
<phoenyxx> jrt: I've seen that- my aunt was telling me 
    about a special ed elementary teacher she knows who detests 
    disabled adults. 
<jrt> I fell for both children and adults that are 
    disabled 
<elisabeth> country, me to 
<phoenyxx> jrt: I think most of us do. 
<jrt> feel 
<phoenyxx> I'm just really disapointed with the factionalism 
    that goes on. 
<erdy> children should run and play 
<HelloKit> Some people feel the pity campaigns used by 
    charities are degrading to people with disabilities, and 
    defeat all the work that has been done to make us equals 
    in society. Do you agree with this? 
<jrt> I dont just feel for children, but thats what they 
    use to raise money with 
<judi> You're getting over my head, Simon 
<elisabeth> erdy, kids should be happy 
<phoenyxx> I agree with that Carly. 
<phoenyxx> judi: over your head? about what? 
<elisabeth> kit, yes i do 
<Mooooooo> hmmmm 
<judi> factionalism? 
<Mooooooo> but are we equals in society? 
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<phoenyxx> No Daniel, we are superior :-) 
<nate> it dose defeat the perpose 
<elisabeth> moo, that is a tought question 
<erdy> yes (have grandaughter with spina bifida so 
    sensitive) 
<lotaca> dinner is ready, have to go, see you all on the 
    list k? 
<phoenyxx> the pity approach perpetuates the 'happy crip' 
    stereotype IMHO. 
<Countrybo> i dunno carly like the mda telethon they show 
    alot of love forthe victoms and sure itsembarrasing but i 
    dont think degrading 
<Mooooooo> right simon 
<phoenyxx> judi- factionalism is the way a large group 
    breaks down into smaller sub-groups and fights among 
    themselves. 
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<judi> thanks 
<phoenyxx> thank you Daniel :-) 
<Ritzy> Hi everyone 
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<phoenyxx> no prob judi :-) I get a bit technical 
    sometimes :-) 
<Mooooooo> hi ritzy 
<Mooooooo> i'll be the first to say that I am not equal 
<Ritzy> Did I miss the meeting? 
<judi> My brain is nonfunctional tonight 
<Countrybo> nope crashed it lol 
<Mooooooo> I do not carry my equal weight in some matters 
<elisabeth> moo, what would you make you change your mind 
<Mooooooo> thats where i have to thank God for the charity 
    of others 
<judi> Depends on how you view equal? 
<elisabeth> moo, how can you say that, when you contribute 
    to so many lives in such a good way 
<jrt> I think everybody is equal, makes no difference if 
    somebody is disabled 
<Mooooooo> equal in ability 
<jrt> it is not Daniel!!! 
<Countrybo> well if it werent for peoples charity i wouldnt 
    be gettin out on my scooter, have a wheel chair and my 
    son wouldnt be doin as well as he is 
<Mooooooo> because here is equality of intellect, not 
    equality of ability 
<judi> Are we equal if we HAVE to have help? Are we 
    equal if a matter of independence is dependent onothers? Or 
    do we keep ourselves inequal because we are afraid to try 
    to be equal? 
<elisabeth> moo, i understand:-) 
<HelloKit> Other people argue that while it may be 
    degrading, pity gets results. If someone feels sorry for 
    you, they are more likely to donate money to help you. Do 
    you think there may be another approach which might even 
    get better results? 
<Mooooooo> nope 
<Mooooooo> pity sells 
<judi> Unfortunately, that is true 
<elisabeth> yes kit, try the more positive approach, like 
    the nike just do it approach, show the positive 
<Raven_> 0 
<jrt> Daniel you have tons of ability 
<erdy> must go: daughter needs computer-bye 
<Countrybo> I got a standing joke with my buddy he has 
    bad hands I have bad legs together we = one whole person 
    lol 
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<phoenyxx> Some people are hypocrites about 'equality'. They 
    make it ok for things to be unequal when it's something 
    everyone else enjoys, but harp about equality when it's 
    something very difficult- 'everyone else does it the hard 
    way, so should you', except 
<phoenyxx> that usually it's 10 times harder for the 
    disabled person. 
<Ritzy> I feel that way when women expect me to open 
    doors for them 
<Ritzy> . 
<Ritzy> he he he 
<judi> I don't think it would work elisabeth 
<phoenyxx> not what I meant! 
<Ritzy> I tell them I'm a feminist...even though I'm a guy 
<jrt> am I lagging?? 
<jrt> or has it all gone quiet 
<jrt> brb 
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<HelloKit> brb 
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<Raven_> ritzy, I'm a male-feminist 
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<judi> Hi Ray 1 
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<Mooooooo> wb debbie 
<jrt> did I miss anything?? 
<Mooooooo> nope 
<Mooooooo> lag bubble 
<jrt> yeah:) 
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<judi> Gotta go guys, wearing out again, good chat and 
    great discussion on the list today. Night all 
<Ray-1> Hi, judi 
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<jrt> Night judi:) 
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<Mooooooo> i think all you have to do is look at all the 
    Rikki and Gerry Springer type shows and see that pity and 
    oddities earn the money 
<jrt> but they always have Daniel, and dont you dare 
    compare yourself to them... 
<jrt> wb lisa:) 
<elisabeth> thanks, i really love these talks jrt 
<Mooooooo> debbie, the same is true for non-disabled 
<Mooooooo> there is no such thing as equality 
<phoenyxx> Am I wrong to be a little tired of the way 
    disability is shown as some grandiose struggle for survival? 
    I see it on TV and I can't relate to it. 
<Mooooooo> not for anyone 
<elisabeth> moo, how do you fell towards the non disabled 
<elisabeth> feel 
<Mooooooo> im ambivalent to both, elizabeth 
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<Mooooooo> i have compassion for those like myself are in 
    need 
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<elisabeth> so you judge a person on his or her own merit 
<Mooooooo> but i wont blow sunshine up thier backside if 
    they are in the wrong 
<tractor> dont. im the one that feels special 
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<nate> we mimi 
<phoenyxx> same here Mooooo, not meaning to sound that 
    harsh about it. 
<nate> we=wb 
<Mooooooo> wb 
<Mooooooo> Carly had to go, she isnt feeling well 
<Mimi> thanks :o) 
<Mimi> awww 
<Mooooooo> so i'll do the last 
<jrt> I know that Daniel, but I dont know of many 'normal 
    type' people who have feelings like that of so called 
    'Disabled' poeple 
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<Mooooooo> i feel that way about all people 
<Mooooooo> . Some people also feel that charity campaigns 
    make it appear that all the disabled think about, all we 
    live for, is being cured. How do you feel about this? 
<Mooooooo> . Some people also feel that charity campaigns 
    make it appear that all the disabled think about, all we 
    live for, is being cured. How do you feel about this? 
<elisabeth> jrt, just ask me, i have my own thoughts and 
    worries and nightmares 
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<phoenyxx> Mooooo: that bothers me, sounds very harsh, but 
    I work hard to show that my disability is not my sole 
    identity or reason for being. 
<elisabeth> moo, i wanted to ask that earlier 
<Mooooooo> hi sam 
<SamB> allo 
<jrt> Hi Samb:) 
<jrt> that didn't come out the way I wanted it too 
    lisa... 
<elisabeth> jrt) 
<Raven_> BUT being disabled is a part of who you are...why 
    try to disway from it imo 
<Mooooooo> i think you're doing a good job at it too 
    simon 
<jrt> yes but thats what a lot of these charities would 
    like other people to think.. 
<phoenyxx> Raven: no, I don't try to hide it, just that I 
    want people to see a real person in the chair. So I 
    can't walk, mabye never again, but in the meantime, I make 
    videos, look for a job, and hang out with my friends :-) 
<Amazin1> 'nite all .....take care :) 
<nate> see ya 
<phoenyxx> thanks daniel :-) 
<jrt> Night Amazin:) 
<Raven_> I didn't say hide, I said disway 
<Raven_> as in redirect from 
<Ray-1> I have to go, too. Night, all. 
<Mooooooo> Amber and I had this kind of discussion before 
    we met 
<Mooooooo> about visual perceptions 
<SamB> Someone as seen Em or Misslinux tonight? 
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<phoenyxx> Raven- oh- I don't try to draw all attention 
    away from it, just make sure people see there's more about 
    me. :-) 
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<rosie_> hi 
<Mooooooo> When I meet someone in a chair, or with some 
    other form of disability, I see the disability first. That 
    is now the brain functions. It looks for differences. 
<Mooooooo> Only afterward does the intellect of the person 
    get noticed 
<jrt> I can understand what you mean daniel, but maybe I 
    am different, but I always accept a person for who they 
    are not what they look like 
<Mooooooo> that comes 2nd though, debbie 
<elisabeth> jrt:-):-) 
<elisabeth> moo, no it doesn't, not for all people 
<Mooooooo> when you're walking down the street and see 
    somone who is butt ass ugly, you don't think 'wow, i bet 
    he's smart' 
<SamB> Someone as seen Em or Misslinux tonight? 
<Raven_> what I'm trying to convey is this : i, you, and 
    10 mil other Americans should embrace their limitations, and 
    by being recognised as surpassing them, others will see the 
    importance of the disabled community as a whole 
<Mimi> I think Daniel is right...our brain can't help but 
    to notice features that help us distinguish one person from 
    the next...it has nothing to do with 'accepting' people 
<elisabeth> lol 
<jrt> I know it does with some people but I used to work 
    with disabled people at telecom and no body ever thought 
    of these people as being different 
<Mooooooo> but after seeing the persons intellect, the 
    physical no longer matters 
<phoenyxx> Raven: now that's a good way of putting it! :-) 
<SamB> Thanks Mimi 
<Ritzy> can someone give me the addy for the disabled list 
    serv? 
<jrt> thats true Daniel 
<Ritzy> I want to subscribe 
<Mooooooo> http://members.tripod.com/~disabled 
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<Mooooooo> click on the mailing list link 
<Mimi> http://members.tripod.com/~disabled/ 
<Mooooooo> 10. How can we balance the need for independence 
    with the need to continue raising funds for research, etc.? 
<SamB> bbl 
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<Ritzy> thanks 
<Raven_> does anyone have the ratio for disabled 
    researchist? 
<jrt> maybe some of these charity organizations should be 
    run by disabled people 
<elisabeth> jrt, you are right, aren't most at least 
    councelled 
<Mimi> I'm sorry, I don't get the connection :o( 
<phoenyxx> the challenge I see is in findin ways to get 
    the public's attention without alienating everyone. 
<Mooooooo> cant do it simon 
<jrt> I'm not sure, but that would go along way I think 
    to helping balance out any prob;ems 
<jrt> problems 
<Mooooooo> some people feel alienated for a living 
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<phoenyxx> but Daniel- that's why people won't support a 
    group, if they see it coming on too strong. 
<phoenyxx> Being militant is appealing but realistically, 
    that might actually do more damage. 
<Mooooooo> ok, i see what you mean now 
<Mooooooo> i misread the statement 
<phoenyxx> The ones that feel alienated are the ones so 
    into the fight that they aren't prepared for the day when 
    the group might actually win. 
<Raven_> -ex. you can't tell me how being gay feels unless 
    you're gay...or how MIMI feels to be a woman etc etc, 
    people would research harder if they were aflicted IMO 
<elisabeth> raven, you are so right 
<Raven_> :) 
<phoenyxx> right on target Raven! 
<Mooooooo> that was the last question :o) 
<elisabeth> i don't feel understood as a single mom, who 
    does my best for my kids, some people just dont understand 
<elisabeth> it is hard at times 
<&Mooooooo> stoplog 
*** LOG CLOSED: Wed Mar 18 19:02:56 1998